Lothar Hirneise

The Interview

This interview was conducted over many weeks by Lothar Hirneise - 1998 in Dietersweiler / Germany at the home of Dr. Johanna Budwig.



LH: What is the fundamental concept of your therapy?

JB: I was senior expert for pharmaceuticals and fats in the Federal Health Office; this was the highest authority in our country responsible for deciding on approvals for medication. At this time, 1951, many applications had been submitted to me for approval, or to be more precise, these were medications for cancer therapy with the sulfhydryl group (sulfur-containing protein compounds). Everywhere I saw that fats played a role, also in expert reports provided by well-known professors like Prof. Nonnenbruch.

Unfortunately, we could only detect fats in the late stage, and there were no chemical values to detect fats chemically at all. By this time, 1951, I had already developed the first chemical verifications for fat, jointly with Professor Kaufmann, the director of the German Federal Institute for Research on Grain, Potatoes and Fat, and my former doctoral advisor, who was also director of the Pharmaceutical Institute. This was published in 1950 in Neue Wege in der Fettforschung (New Directions in Fat Research).

Using the method of paper chromatography, which I had developed, I could analyze 0.1 mg of fat, and characterize it as highly unsaturated or unsaturated. We then published this extensively. These were the first studies that made it even possible to detect linoleic acid or linolenic acid. Due to the importance of this work, 16 doctoral candidates were assigned to support my efforts. In this situation I noticed the sulfhydryl groups in my appraisal of the medications for cancer therapy. Through official channels I had the right to ask the companies questions relative to how they wanted to substantiate how this substance (sulfhydryl group) could help with cancer. The companies e.g. the company Knoll, which wanted to use these types of medications as cancer therapy were prepared to send all the copies of the created file, on my request.

Consequently, in early 1951, I got a very fast overview of where the problems were in this issue. That was the same year that B. Flaschenträger’s manual appeared: Physiologische Chemie (Physiological Chemistry). The problem of automatic oxygen absorption for the living substrate is one of the most elementary questions in all of physiology, and it is one of the darkest. Everybody knows the sulfur-containing protein compound of the sulfhydryl group can be detected in all breathing tissues.

However another partner must be present in the interplay with this sulfhydryl group, because the self-active oxygen consumption in the living system is executed in a zig zag curve. Strictly speaking, it is manifest that oxygen consumption does not produce a reaction product; rather it occurs in an interplay between the positive electrically-charged sulphur compounds in the protein, and some kind of fatty substance that we cannot detect, because no verifications for it are available. This fatty substance however plays a major role in the Warburg’s respiratory enzyme.

Warburg recognized that with the Warburg respiratory enzyme or the cytochrome oxydase, fats play a role in the lack of oxygen consumption and oxygen utilization (utilization in the living substrate). He wanted to overcome this blockade in the experiment with butyric acid. This attempt was a failure.


LH: Does this mean that Warburg was the first who attempted to introduce more oxygen into the cell with butyric acid?

JB: No, von Helmholz, the man who discovered ozone, had attempted to get more oxygen into the cell. He showed that when we treat doves who have become asphyctic (i.e. doves that have been fed in such a manner that oxygen absorption is blocked), with increased ozone or oxygen, they then die more quickly – and this is still the case today. If the “oxygen bomb” is set up in the hospital for a person with oxygen deficiency, then the sick person dies more quickly. If animals can be made asphyctic through a certain diet, e.g. bleached rice, then they suffocate and neither increased introduction of oxygen nor activation with any other possible substance will help. At this time we already knew vitamin A, B, C, D, and E, but this did not help. Prof. Linus Pauling for example had been involved with animal experiments and knew precisely that it had been published in 1951 that all vitamins had been investigated in searching for the respiratory activator for Warburg’s respiratory enzyme, but this had produced absolutely nothing, not even vitamin C. By the way Professor Pauling, who had requested all my books from me personally, and who also received them from me, never referred to my work later. And then the idea occurred to Warburg in 1926 that fats play a role. However he did not know which ones, and experimented with butyric acid. By the way, [Albert] Svent György also experimented with fats and wrote as early as 1952 that the substances are too easily oxidized and we cannot detect them. In this situation I then published my new ways of fat analysis, namely to introduce sensitive and specific verifications, nice stains. I was able to analyze fats precisely and break them down into the individual fatty acid components.


LH: What effects do these fatty acids have?

JB: They form the opposite electrical pole to the positively charged protein in the cell nucleus. They are located in the cell membrane and have been known for a long time as lipoids (fatty substances). In the case of tumor formation it was not known why cells in division are present in such great quantities. The wrong concept is still being pursued in medicine today; the tumor is associated with too much growth. This is incorrect. In 1956, I had published that with the tumor many cells in division are present, and amitosis has already started (see Fig.). However in the case of tumor formation, cleavage of the daughter cell is lacking, which then results in rejection of the aging cells. When a leaf falls from a tree, a skin has formed over it and this vital function for normal the growth process is interrupted if the electrically charged fatty acids are lacking.


LH: How are fatty acids charged electronically?

JB: An important physicist, Kenneth Ford, said in 1966 that the elementary function of the electron exchange with the photons of solar energy is so intense, that one gets the impression the electrical energy stored in the electrons of seed oils, for example, still recognizes the relationship to its forbears in the photons of solar energy. Physically this has been strictly proven. And this absorption of solar energy in seeds is already adjusted in the green leaf to certain very specific wavelengths; science refers to this via the quantosomes. The quanta of physics, of the wave movement are adjusted to the photons of solar energy. This means that they do not even absorb other rays, and if other radiation such as with the transport of nuclear waster (1998) influences human functions, the elementary function between fats and proteins for oxygen absorption, then the radiation from the ashes of the atom bomb work so radically that this dipolarity which must remain in interplay in movement for the life process, is torn apart and the life function is destroyed. In physics these products in physical processes that disturb (i.e. pull apart) the dipolarity in the life process, which really should be banned, have been called radicals for a long time.

Now if you expose a normal life function, regardless of whether it is a seed or a person, to these rays, then intervention in the life function is so radical that in these experiments with quanta biology with the wrong rays even rats and mice jump around until they fall to the floor dead. The term radical comes from physics and was later used as camouflage for the highly heated oils, which we do not want to name by name, but that work exactly the same way. The base reaction of oxygen consumption and energy extraction from food is executed in the interplay of positive sulfur-containing protein, electronically highly charged with the photons that are suitable in terms of solar energy quanta, stored in seed oils of various quality. This dipolarity differs in quality and it is crucial for the function of the fatty acids that are recognized as vital. Other fatty acids that have a shorter fatty acid chain, e.g. 4, 6, or 8 links, are also utilized under other conditions in the life process.

Here however we are only referring to the fatty acids that are recognized as vital with 18 links in the hydrogen chains (chain with 18 links) and with high electronic enhancement. It is scientifically known that the electronic energy, e.g. in the linoleic fatty acids, is so high-grade that this energy lifts off of the heavy mass and moves as an electron cloud. You must start with the idea that heavy matter, charged positively, pulls down, the electrons pull upwards. In this dipolarity man can stand up, and in this dipolarity man has more capacity to store solar photons than does any other form of life, as demonstrated in the quantum biology of Professor Dessauer in 1954. It is particularly in the brain that these electrons are highly enhanced.


LH: What is an electron cloud?

JB: If the enhancement of electronic energy is always higher through absorption of photons in the electron compounds of the fats, then the power of the electrons is so high in the dipolarity in between gravity and electrons, that they move from the fatty acid, (which also contains hydrogen compounds, and which is heavy matter), over the chain with electrons.


LH: What is the significance of the cloud?

JB: No life form has as much energy to store the electrons and photons in depots as does man. This electronic energy, stored in the electronic substrate of the human being, stored particularly in the vital, highly unsaturated fatty acids, is such a strong life element for man, that it was correctly said previously that these are certain fatty acids that have been recognized as vital foodstuffs. Man cannot live without them.
For instance, chemists measure the iodine value of fats and say that if oils have a certain iodine value, then these oils are unsaturated. If oils, regardless of whether sunflower oil or flax oil, are treated with overheated steam then these oils can indeed give a positive iodine value, but they are not the vital fats with 18 links, but rather they form cross-links between the fatty acids like a large net, and are highly detrimental to metabolism of the fats, and with protein they act like radicals.

I repeat because it is so important: I have detected particles in oils treated with steam, which indeed have a positive iodine value, but which are highly toxic for man.


LH: And you attempt to avoid this toxin when treating people who are sick?

JB: In my nutrition therapy I expressly switch off these fats. By the way the discovery of switching-off these toxic oils, has been recognized as nationally worthwhile since 1971. In the oil and fat industry production has not been changed to this day, because they say these products are billion-dollar items, and nobody will give the industry money to establish something new. That is understandable. The representatives of chemotherapy pose another problem. Our chemotherapy is aimed at destruction of the tumor, and it is recognized that chemotherapies destroy many living cells, and the entire person. Anything that disturbs growth is fatal because growth, as elementary life function, is part of the life process of man. We cannot achieve something good with bad tools.


LH: Can you tell us something more about the unsaturated fatty acids and their net-like connections?

JB: For a moment try to forget everything that you have read previously. In butter the fatty acids consist of 4 carbon compounds, in coconut fat, goat fat, and sheep fat the fatty acids consist of 6, 8, 10, or 12 carbon compounds respectively. The unsaturated vital fatty acids really start in the chain with 18 carbon compounds. For example, in olive oil there is only one unsaturated bond in the fatty acid. A person who has a deficiency of vital fats does not absorb it. Thus today’s publicity concerning olive oil does not help at all. The fatty acid chains are primarly saturated in the lower area of the carbon chain links, butyric acid, coconut fat, and palm fat, primarily saturated, however they are more easily co-combustible for people if the essential fatty acids are present. The fatty acids with 18 links are the most important essential fatty acids. There are also fatty acids with up to 30 links.

Fatty acids with 18 links, like in sunflower oil or in flax oil with the higher level of unsaturation, are more important for people, particularly for the brain functions of man.

The carbon compounds are heavy matter, even in the fatty acid. If two people reach out to each other with two arms, then they are more strongly bound to each than if they only extend one arm. It is precisely the same for carbon. The fatty acid in olive oil is not considered to be a vital fatty acid; it can only be co-combusted in the organism if essential fatty acids are also present. Linoleic acid rich in electrons is considered vital. There is a particularly high amount of energy in this double double bond of the linoleic acid. This energy wanders and is not fixed in place as it is with a chemical compound, such as with table salt.

This energy, wandering between electrons and the positively charged protein with sulfhydryl groups is an alternating association process in the electromagnetic field. This is very important. Perhaps you are familiar with the painting of Michelangelo, where God creates Adam (two fingers pointing to each other, however they do not touch). This is quantum physics, the fingers do not touch. The physicists who I know, Max Planck, or Albert Einstein, or Professor Dessauer all represent the view that man is created by God in His image. You see in being together as human beings there is certainly also a connection without directly touching the other person. People who maintain that they only believe what they can touch are wrong.

The dipolarity with a simple double bond in olive oil is weaker than it is in sunflower seed oil, which is bonded twice. This double double bond is considered to be vital for man. However if the same chain length of 18 carbons has three unsaturated fatty acid compounds, then the electrical energy is as strong as a magnet, depending on the position of the double bond. If double combinations are now closer together, then the energy is greater. All electrical energy that is in movement produces a current that flows and spreads a magnetic field. These electrons also have a magnetic field. You can see this on the window when it rains, for instance. When one drop comes down, it attracts another drop and becomes a larger drop. Precisely the same principle applies with electrons.

This electronic energy is negatively charged. The positively charged sulfhydryl groups of the protein adhere in the unsaturated bonds where the electrons are and that is where they insert their sulphur-containing compounds.

This produces the lipoproteins. The life process is sustained in the interplay between the positively-charged particles and negatively-charged particles. In this process there is no connection, and this is our life element. If a radical break occurs at this point through fatty acids that no longer give off electronic energy, but rather are cross-linked like a net, then the dipolarity can no longer work actively in this net. This is the deadly effect of radicals, because instead of the chains with the electron clouds they interlace a net without electron clouds, indeed with unsaturated bonds, but without dipolarity. I quickly knew that the triple unsaturated fatty acids, which were called linolenic acid, and which no one had isolated before me, had 18 links and that they did not always carry their double bonds at the same point.

They have such a strong electronic energy compared to the heavier matter in the 18-link fatty acid chains, that biologically this energy is far greater than it is with the next arachidon acid with 20 links. The highest electron collection is with the combination of linoleic-linolenic fatty acids in flax oil. The linolenic acid as conjugated (interaction of neighboring double bonds in the molecule that are separated by a single bond) fatty acid is even more effective and is even more strongly effective in interplay with linoleic acid as it is present in the flax oil chain as essential fatty acids for oxygen absorption. This was relatively easy for me to verify in my experiments. I would like to emphasize this. The combination of double unsaturated linoleic acid with triple unsaturated linolenic acid is particularly well-combined in flaxseed. Naturally the quality of flaxseed differs greatly. Naturally red flowering flaxseed and blue flowering flaxseed are naturally different; there is also a difference depending on whether flaxseed is harvested in the cold like in Siberia, or in Africa.


LH: Is it this energy that heals cancer?

JB: Yes, this energy ...

The complete interview you can find in the book:

The great cookbook and textbook of the Oil-Protein Diet